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- 👑 Give people a story to believe in
👑 Give people a story to believe in
Jonathan Ashworth, the former Shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, talks to Tom Hashemi.

Give people a story to believe in
A few weeks ago, significant numbers of this country, indeed, significant numbers across the world, were watching absolutely rapt to see who the next pope would be. Thousands upon thousands flock to the Vatican every Sunday to listen to an old man on a balcony deliver a sermon. Why do they go to listen to an old man delivering parables? Because they want something to believe in. The Pope is telling stories that explain the world and explain what people's lives are all about. The successful politician does the same.
Don’t pretend to be something that you’re not
We are now in an era where inauthenticity gets smoked out within nanoseconds, so don't pretend to be something you are not. People can smell bullshit a mile off these days, and frankly, I think the public is slightly more forgiving of you even if you are a bit unpolished and a bit rough around the edges so long as you are genuine.
If people have low attention spans, why is it that…
People think we're in an era of low attention spans, an era of people not wanting to look in depth into things. I challenge that. Why is the most popular podcast in the UK two Oxbridge historians talking for an hour about something that happened 150 years ago? People are looking for explanations. People are looking for an understanding of where you are coming from, what you are about, and why you have landed on a particular policy.
A strong Treasury is a good Treasury
I was very fortunate to work in the Treasury for Gordon Brown many years ago as one of his special advisors. And I still think that the Treasury ought to be a big policymaking machine across government, as certainly was the case under Gordon. We were very proud that many of the big social policy agendas when it came to employment policy, welfare reform policy, pensions policy, child policy, and international development were driven from Gordon's Treasury. Look, if the Treasury just becomes an abacus-style accounting body, policing departments for spend, but not engaging seriously in creative policymaking, then it is a drag on the government's agenda. It should be engaging seriously in a debate about how to stimulate growth in the economy.
Yes, relationships matter, but good ideas matter more
A wise cabinet minister would want to have a good, strong relationship with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. That doesn't mean they necessarily have to be best friends, not at all, but it has to be a relationship of respect and they have to cultivate that relationship as much as they cultivate their relationships with 10 Downing Street. And they obviously have to convince the Treasury that their new policy for tiddlywinks is important for the growth of the economy, and will make a material impact to people's lives. The Treasury gives short shrift to flights of fantasy, which they don't think will actually move the dial on growth–and rightly so.
Policy windows move fast
The next general election is four years away, but your ability to shape policy is less than three. As soon as we hit the 2028 budget, Whitehall will start thinking about the election. And if the opinion polls are the same as they are now, the civil service will be thinking, ‘oh my word, are we going to have to give Nigel Farage access talks? What if there’s a coalition?’ Nothing else will happen after that, so your window is short.
I’m so desperately sorry that I didn’t get into this Government at the last election. If I had been Work and Pensions Secretary, I think I would have changed the name to the Department of Social Justice, because that's got to be what it’s about in the end. I'd have convinced the Treasury that investing in children is good for the economy. I would be prepared to take very tough decisions on welfare reform because there is a problem with the structure of Universal Credit; the Government is right to look at how to incentivise people who are described as ‘economically inactive’–although it’s a horrible, ugly phrase.
Reform is a real threat to Labour…
Reform is a real and present danger to Labour. It’s existential for the Conservatives. Labour has to take Reform on, and take on their arguments. And you can see the argument that Labour is starting to make about Reform: do you really want to put them into government? Is there going to be a Reform/Jenrick coalition? Is that really what the British public want? It’s going to become a live argument.
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